This is pretty comparable (and worse in the hit department) than the badge necklace that almost everyone will be getting first.

I passed this to a DK offtank the other day since i had the badge one already and I'm not upset about it. If it comes up again i'll take it since i'm pretty easily hit capped though.

Don't stress over this not dropping if you have the badge neck.

Комментарий от julienpdx

drops like this kind of ^&*! me off. Why is it that I buy a badge item and it has better extra stats on it but this one drops in naxx and has armor which was one of the biggest missing pieces from the badge one; yet the extra stats suck? God Blizzard....

Комментарий от delete

This is quite a bit worse than the badge neck, in my opinion.

+350 armor
+9 strength
-8 defense rating
-5 dodge rating
-21 hit rating

Compared to Chained Military Gorget.

Комментарий от Jrubzjeknf

I was comparing this neck with the Chained Military Gorget and noticed it actually has less defense and dodge rating. Still my tanking gear addon rates it a lot higher.

When I starting tanking heroics and raids, I never really looked at my armor. Does it really do that much for tanking compared to def and dodge rating?

Комментарий от 385727

i see that this is a good item for Druids, I gotta ask: how well do you think this neck piece will do for a combat rogue? I would assume pretty damn good but I would appreciate any suggestions or feedback!

Комментарий от 137161

armor will always be the best stat for druid. Just that the neck armor (that is new in lich king anyway) is not getting multiplier. considering dodge and sta on that neck it still is really good for druids in only taht .

Armor is better for non-druid tanks than it is for druids (now that bonus armor doesn't get multiplied in bear form). Bears have higher armor, so they get less of a benefit from it.

Strength is much better for non-druid tanks than it is for druids. It increases a paladin and warrior's block value and increases a DK's parry rate (in addition to giving them AP). It only gives a druid AP, so AP is a perfect substitute for strength (only for druids, not for paladins, warriors, or DKs).

Druids don't need as much stamina because they have dire bear form (+25% stamina), survival of the fittest (+6% stats), and heart of the wild (+10% stamina). Leather armor has less stamina than plate tanking armor, that's because druid's have abilities and talents to compensate.

Druids don't need defense rating. It only gives them dodge, but the rate is so poor that dodge rating is a better way to spend itemization (agility is even better still).

Dodge rating is also intended for plate-wearing tanks. Druids get more dodge from agility than other tanking classes do. Druids should get their dodge from agility, not dodge rating.

Agility is the best defensive stat for a druid. No traditional tanking items (like this one) have agility. Druid tanks are supposed to wear DPS necklaces and rings. DPS items have agility (which is great for a druid tank), AP (which is a fine substitute for strength), stamina (in lower quantities, but that too is okay), and crit/hit/expertise.

Комментарий от 137161

but some ferals may be surprised to know that enchants such as https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/item=34207 and https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/spell=47672 are rated as equal or superior for overall survivability to the more common Agility enchants most ferals take.

If you have 24,000 armor, adding 240 will increase your mitigation by 0.236%. The alternative enchant is +20 agility, which gives you +0.571% dodge, +0.285% crit, and +0.047% mitigation (remember, agility gives you armor). Even if you favor mitigation over dodge, you'll have a hard time arguing that +0.236% mitigation beats 0.571% dodge. The cloak enchant is even more strongly in favor of agility because the armor is lower (225 instead of 240) and the agility is greater (22 instead of 20).

You are overlooking the reason WHY ferals have talents to increase their stamina. They cannot block or parry as the other tank classes can. The larger health pools help compensate for this

Mitigation and large health pools are both important, but one isn't a pure substitute for the other. Druids used to be able to tank solely from bear form giving them rediculous armor/stamina gains. That's not the case any more.

The increased stamina from talents and abilities compensates for the general lack of stamina on druid gear. Plate tanking gear is intended for plate tanks only. Since all plate tanks need stamina, the gear has high stamina. Druid tanking gear is shared with rogues and feral DPS. Those classes don't need stamina so the gear doesn't have as much.

An item such as https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/item=40065, which by the above poster's logic would be an ideal feral tank neck, would give you slightly less overall avoidance then the defense+dodge on this tank neck, and you would lose 20 stam and 350 armor.

If you want examples of druid tanking gear, don't look at Naxx loot. The gear was designed before the druid tanking changes, so it's hard to find a good druid tanking item from Naxx. The rings and necks were designed only to be melee DPS items, so the agility is lower and the AP is higher than a druid tank would like. Rings and necklaces from Ulduar are budgeted to better accommodate druid tanks.

Fool's Trial isn't the best example of a druid tanking necklace. Pendant of the Outcast Hero is a better example, but let's compare both to Amulet of Autopsy.

Autopsy: 0.889% dodge, +0.343% mitigation (1.232% total)
Fool's Trial: +1.085% dodge, +0.089% mitigation (1.174% total)
Outcast Hero: +1.284% dodge, +0.106% mitigation (1.39% total)

The agility necklaces give you more dodge but less mitigation from armor. It takes 350 armor, 25 defense, and 27 dodge rating to almost match the mitigation you get from 45 agility. In terms of itemization, the armor, defense, and dodge rating cost more (combined) than the 45 agility. You should be leery about taking an item with no agility (trinkets aside) because it takes a lot of other stats to give a druid the same benefit. That's exactly the problem with necklaces like this one: it's not that you're losing mitigation, but that you have to sacrifice something to get the same amount of mitigation.

Pendant of the Outcast Hero gives you a total of 1.47% crit. Fool's Trial gives you about the same amount of crit and +28 hit rating. Amulet of Autopsy gives you zero crit and zero hit rating. For most fights, that's not worth trading 20 stamina.

Note: all calculations assume you have Survival of the Fittest (+6% stats), Improved Mark of the Wild (+2% stats), and Blessing of Kings (+10% stats). Being percentage-based stat increases, those buffs increase your agility but not your defense/dodge ratings.

Комментарий от farkus

According to simcrafts, the extra mitigation from the armor on those enchants DOES in fact provide more survivability then the Agi enchants.

The increased stamina from talents and abilities compensates for the general lack of stamina on druid gear. Plate tanking gear is intended for plate tanks only. Since all plate tanks need stamina, the gear has high stamina. Druid tanking gear is shared with rogues and feral DPS. Those classes don't need stamina so the gear doesn't have as much.

If the stamina talents compensate for the lack of Stamina on leather gear, then what compensates for the druids inability to block or parry? What compensates for the poor mitigation against magic? Druids NEED stamina. There is most definitely a difference in the stamina values of various leather items, not all of it has low stamina.
I have a full set of kitty DPS gear, and a full set of bear tank gear. iLevels ranging from 200 to 226. In bear form i lose 11k hp when I equip my kitty gear. Even if you remove all enchants and gems, there is still at least a 6k difference in health.

A few examples of high vs low stamina gear:
Shoulders: Trollwoven Spaulders vs Infamous Knave
Legs: Gored hide Legguards vs Leggings of Brazen Trespass

Pendant of the Outcast Hero gives you a total of 1.47% crit. Fool's Trial gives you about the same amount of crit and +28 hit rating. Amulet of Autopsy gives you zero crit and zero hit rating. For most fights, that's not worth trading 20 stamina.

There is virtually no scenario where any tank should take any amount of crit or hit rating over the 24 stamina this neck gives over the DPS one. 24 stam for a druid is 360 health. If you followed your train of logic on all your gear selections and took crit and hit over staminia, you would lose several thousand hit points.

Комментарий от 137161

There is most definitely a difference in the stamina values of various leather items, not all of it has low stamina.

You're right that some leather armor has more stamina than other leather armor, but there's no leather armor that competes with the high stamina plate armor. Currently, the most stamina on a leather chestpiece is 169 on the Polar Vest, next is 153 on Malfurion's Raiments of Triumph. There are about 25 plate chestpieces with more than 169 stamina, the top one being Hellscream's Breastplate of Triumph with 206.

Druids cannot address this lack of stamina with their ring/necklace choices because plate-wearing tanks can take the same rings and necklaces. Druid-specific talents and abilities are what deal with this lack of stamina whether you like it or not.

what compensates for the druids inability to block or parry? What compensates for the poor mitigation against magic?

Druids have savage defense and higher dodge rates. Druids also have some talents for reducing magic damage.

You can point to any tanking ability and ask what other classes have to compensate, but there isn't always a good answer. Warriors have taunt, bears have growl. Bears have swipe, what do warriors have? Thunderclap? Shockwave? There isn't always a perfect counterpart to another tank's ability, but there doesn't have to be one.

If you followed your train of logic on all your gear selections and took crit and hit over staminia, you would lose several thousand hit points.

These selections can only be made for rings and necks so the difference wouldn't be several thousand hit points. It's also important to note that you're not just trading stamina for crit and hit, but you're gaining dodge too.

I'm guessing you don't play a druid. An increased crit chance means two things for survivability: more improved leader of the pack procs and more hits with savage defense up. Having 1.47% more crit could easily mean that savage defense is up for one or two more attacks during a fight. Would you rather absorb 1500-3000 more damage during a fight or have 360 more health?

Комментарий от farkus

Druids cannot address this lack of stamina with their ring/necklace choices because plate-wearing tanks can take the same rings and necklaces.

This is terrible logic. The fact that a plate wearer can use a ring or neck does not mean that Druid does not have use for the same item. As I said in my first post, it is foolish to just blindly turn away from any item that lacks agility. Most tanking rings and necks do not have agility on them. But this does not mean they are bad for ferals, they are actually quite good because what they lack in agility they make up for with Stamina, armor and dodge.

I'm guessing you don't play a druid. An increased crit chance means two things for survivability: more improved leader of the pack procs and more hits with savage defense up. Having 1.47% more crit could easily mean that savage defense is up for one or two more attacks during a fight. Would you rather absorb 1500-3000 more damage during a fight or have 360 more health?

The essence of what you are saying is that tanking druids should value crit chance over stamina. And you question whether I play a druid? Putting zero effort into getting crit on your gear, you will still easily get 30%. Between your white attack, mangle and maul, you will have Lotp going off every time it is off cooldown no matter what. Savage Defense uptime is already around 85%.

Your initial point was that feral tanks should be rolling on Rogue gear, so do not now try to say we are only talking about Necks and Rings, and not Leather.

You are right that crit is a good stat for ferals. And you are right that agility is a better stat because it gives armor, dodge and crit. But you undervalue Stamina and armor. Armor is by far the single best stat any tank can get. You're not going to find any armor on melee dps rings and necks.

Take https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/item=47730 vs https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/item=47731

Even if you could trade the haste for crit, you would still be losing 38 stamina and 410 armor if you took the dps one. Accoring to rawr, the agility on that ring will give you .08 more avoidance then the dodge+def combo on the tank one. But your overall survivability is higher with the tank ring due to the higher stamina and armor.

Комментарий от 137161

The fact that a plate wearer can use a ring or neck does not mean that Druid does not have use for the same item.

It might be easier to understand with an example:

Suppose I am a druid and get +1000 stamina from my leather armor. My warrior friend gets +1400 stamina from his plate armor. I have 400 stamina less than him. I equip high-stamina rings and get +200 stamina. Now I'm at 1200 stamina. The warrior equips the same rings and is now at 1600 stamina. I'm still down by 400.

The rings didn't help to make up the deficit because the warrior can wear the same rings. Druids must have something else (talents & abilities) that makes up for their lack of stamina from gear. This means that druids shouldn't feel obligated to wear high stamina rings because that was never how they were making up for this deficit in the first place.

The essence of what you are saying is that tanking druids should value crit chance over stamina

Yes, sometimes. Would you take +1% crit over 10 stamina? What if it was +5% crit instead? Or how about +10% crit?

Crit used to be viewed as purely a threat stat. By that thinking, to improve your survival you would have answered "no" to the previous three questions. iLotP and SD make crit a survival stat too, so there does exist some amount of crit that is better for survival than 10 points of stamina. This doesn't mean that you should always favor crit over stamina, but it does mean that to gear a druid (well) you can't just pick the items with the most stamina and armor.

People like stamina (and armor, for this same reason) because you know the exact benefit it gives you and you know exactly how much health you'd have without it. You can see your maximum health and brag about that number, but that number isn't all there is to your survivability. Increasing your crit chance is good, but you can't see and measure the benefit as easily so people don't like it as much. Nobody brags about their savage defense uptime or iLotP procs per minute, but they certainly help your survival.

Take https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/item=47730 vs https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/item=47731 ... you would still be losing 38 stamina and 410 armor if you took the dps one. Accoring to rawr, the agility on that ring will give you .08 more avoidance

76 agility, with no buffs or talents, gives you +152 armor. With talents it will give you +164 armor. With blessing of kings it would be +181 armor. The only buff to the 560 armor on the ring would be +2% from a meta gem (if that's applied to it), giving the Clutch of Fortification either 379 or 390 more armor, but not 410 more.

76 agility is also (pre-DR) +1.886% dodge, the combined dodge from dodge and defense on the other ring is +1.209%. Pre-DR the difference is 0.677%, so post-DR the difference would most likely be in the 0.271% - 0.406% range, not 0.08% as you stated.

If you butcher the math enough, intellect could end up being a bear's best stat =)

Комментарий от hazmatt

You equip Amulet of Autopsy.

Your skill in Surgery has been increased by 27.

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