Method Jdotb Q&A #18 - BFA Dungeon Difficulty Ranking, Class Meta in BFA

Live Posted 2018/07/17 at 10:17 PM by Squishei

Watch live video from jdotb on www.twitch.tvMethod Jdotb Q&A #18Looking back at Legion, is there anything you wish you had done but you didn’t have time because of your goals as a pro player?

I started my fledgling streaming career back in August 2017 (and to be honest, it hadn’t dawned on me until I started writing this sentence that I’m coming up on my one year anniversary), and the reason I started streaming was because I figured some people would want to watch the stuff I spent all day doing, namely M+. If at any point I’d felt like I was spending time in WoW doing things I didn’t want to be doing just for the sake of keeping my viewers entertained, I probably would’ve given up streaming without much hesitation. So I don’t necessarily have regrets when it comes to Legion content per se, but sometimes you do wish that there were more than 24 hours in a day so that you could squeeze in a few extra things.

I wish I had more time to run M+ keys with people outside my group of Method teammates. When you run with the same people all the time, you develop a shared vision of how dungeons should be run and what mobs should be pulled. When you jump into new groups, you get exposed to some new strats which may be terrible or may be genius, but either way it gives you a new perspective on a dungeon and forces you to look at things with fresh eyes. It’s one of the reasons I’m having a lot of fun on the BFA beta servers right now -- there are no established routes through the dungeons yet, so each group you join is constantly iterating and applying new tricks they’ve learned recently.

On a related note, I would’ve liked to roll a toon on EU servers to play with some of the transatlantic M+ crews. Streaming has given me an opportunity to meet a lot of our EU M+ counterparts, and it would’ve been a lot of fun to get spend some time with them. Unfortunately the effort required to start a fresh account then level and gear up a new character in Legion was daunting, and I could never really justify investing that kind of time. Fortunately, all beta accounts are on one of two NA servers, so I’ve gotten a chance to play with a lot of my EU buddies these last couple weeks, and the experience has been magical.

But for the most part, I got out of Legion everything I wanted to get. I didn’t really have a desire to maintain alts, so I didn’t. Some gold from Argus sales would’ve been nice, but I don’t spend much gold so it was never a priority. I don’t care about collecting achievements or mounts or toys, and my PvP days are long behind me. I earned two Mage Tower appearances and probably won’t ever use either of them.

If I’m being completely honest, had Legion not introduced M+ I don’t think my WoW subscription would’ve lasted past Avatar in Tomb of Sargeras. And even Nighthold probably would’ve been six months of logging in exclusively for raid and logging off immediately after. I spent a lot (like a LOT) of time playing WoW in Legion, and almost all of it was M+ -- and that’s exactly the way I wanted it.

What is your favorite and least favorite part of the 8.0 Patch?

BFA seems like a fairly polarizing expansion, so there’s a lot to like and not like about the 8.0 pre-patch being dropped into our laps today. Perhaps unexpectedly, I don’t have a lot of strong opinions one way or the other about BFA; so long as it includes M+, I’m a happy camper. But there are a few things about BFA that moved the needle.

My favorite part of BFA is the handling of the loot system. This includes both the move to forced personal loot and the removal of tier from the game. My focus in WoW is strictly on M+, and being forced to raid to get the gear necessary to compete at the highest M+ level was a constant aggravation in Legion. Most high end guilds will funnel gear to the DPS, so as a healer that was showing up to get loot for M+, the system was failing me abysmally. And one of the big reasons why raiding was considered necessary was because the tier gear was generally so strong that no amount of raw ilvl could outweigh it. With tier being removed in BFA, you can now get almost all the loot you need for M+ solely by doing M+. Raiding will help you get the loot faster, but it won’t necessarily offer you access to exclusive pieces of gear (though trinkets are still a big deal and might warrant some raiding each week). I know I’ve rubbed some people the wrong way on these topics in the past, and I don’t mean to instigate, but as someone that is playing the game with M+ in mind, these changes are very liberating.

My least favorite part of BFA is, ironically, also the loot system, specifically the RNG of it. A new wrinkle added to the weekly M+ cache is that it can now reward between 1 to 3 items, meaning that an especially lucky player could net a dozen items from their weekly cache in a month while someone else might get only four. Titanforging was one thing, but when you start adding RNG to the number of items that drop, then you’ve placed way too much importance in luck. Considering that the contents of the cache are heavily weighted towards Azerite pieces and weapons, a good cache haul for a few weeks in a row might well determine which character you decide to main for the expansion or at least that tier.

As I said earlier, as long as M+ is around in a recognizable form, I’m not going to get too worked up about BFA. But this expansion does seem to be tied strongly to loot.

It looks like there is already a strong meta coming into play for early M+. DH, Pally, Warlock, Outlaw Rogue are all so strong. Is Blizzard not doing enough to prevent this from happening? The game isn’t even live yet and already things seem to be set in stone if you want to push high keys.

The timing of this question is great because all of these specs got nerfed by varying degrees this week. Warlock damage has been reduced considerably; pally AoE got whacked hard by a nerf to Consecrate; Vengeance got some nerfs to its AoE (though it’s still impressive); and Outlaw is already looking like it might lose its crown to Subtlety before everything is said and done. The meta is a fickle thing, and it doesn’t take much to push classes up or down. Warrior was a burst AoE god in Legion until it suddenly wasn’t, and Windwalker went from a bench rider to MVP overnight. People tend to quickly forget, but warlocks started Legion as persona non grata and couldn’t buy their way into keys at any level. It wasn’t until Nighthold rolled around that they suddenly became WARLOCKS.

The classes people are playing on beta aren’t necessarily the classes they’ll be playing on live. A lot of people hear hype around certain specs (Outlaw was a big one) and want to see what’s up so they play around on those specs. So you see a bunch of rogues running around on beta and think to yourself, “Oh my God, everyone is a rogue.” But in reality half those guys are going to play a different class in BFA and never touch rogue again. Raiding is also a mitigating factor because most guilds are going to want diversity in their roster so there will be some people that WANT to play rogue but won’t be able to because their guild already has three rogues.

And it’s definitely premature to predict a meta at this point because the groups on beta have only just begun to scratch the surface of what’s possible in M+. Most groups are topping out at the +12-13 range, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see keys two or three levels higher than that routinely being done within the first month of M+. Until teams get to that point, it’s impossible to say which classes will be strong in those circumstances. Will immunities be make-or-break? Will snares be super important? Is an AoE stun practically required or just nice?

Another thing that doesn’t get discussed often is just how much damage Blood DK did to the Legion meta. Virtually all of the top keys featured a Blood DK (usually alongside a Holy paladin), and when you get that kind of ubiquity at the tank spot, the rest of meta begins to gravitate around that constant. Classes that worked well with Blood DK became the most popular. But in BFA I think you might reasonably expect to see at least four tank classes capable of making runs at world firsts (Monk, DH, DK, Paladin) if the class balance went live as it is on beta currently, and that will open up opportunities for more comps because each tank has certain strengths and weaknesses that can be leveraged. Having actual choice for your tank class will do a lot to keep the meta fresh.

Some classes will always have an edge in M+ because of utility that can’t really be buffed or nerfed. Rogues have Shroud of Concealment, and as long as they have it, they will have a significant advantage over other melee. Warlocks have Demonic Portals, and it will enable some skips that no other class ability can. But that utility always takes a backseat to damage potential, and if those classes aren’t performing well on the meters then no amount of utility will get them brought to a key. And as Blizzard showed with multiple balance patches this week, damage output can be here one minute and gone the next.

BFA Dungeons ranked by Mythic 0 difficulty as of July 17Atal’DazarFreeholdShrine of the StormMOTHERLODE!!The UnderrotTol DagorSiege of BoralusWaycrest ManorTemple of SethralissKing’s Rest

Comment by GustophCool, another expansion with easy and boring dungeons, thanks blizzardComment by AdrrianporTemple features several annoying mini-games, including dodging lightning orbs (fun for anyone with latency) and carrying orbs around a room.

Wow. Just wow..... One of the reason why i hated BRH and reason for me to hate this templeComment by PveMannoCool, another expansion with easy and boring dungeons, thanks blizzardComment by MagikMurlokYay, keep his recommendations and thoughts coming! We want more! What are his thoughts on specs in a raiding environment etc?Comment by JyuVioleWhy are we stuck to only one person's opinion, would like to see other top M+ runners.Comment by perculiaWhy are we stuck to only one person's opinion, would like to see other top M+ runners.Comment by meineracheThank you for the interview, it was quite interesting to read. Dungeon info helped me sort out the pieces of information from different streams of dungeon runs on beta.
I was hoping to find in this interview some insight on discipline priests in dungeons (if I remember correctly, it is the main spec Jdotb plays), are there any plans for wowhead guide or an interview on priests featuring this player?Comment by ThranduelAs a former (mostly retired) raider/raid leader who does less competitive Mythics (pretty much focused on getting my max level chest each week), I always enjoy these posts. Hopefully they will continue in BfA.

I especially like the advice on which affixes are easiest/hardest with each dungeon. I'd love to see that added to the Mythic+ guide and have it updated as things change/you do these weekly interviews.

I'd probably have quit Legion a year ago if not for the Mythic+ system. I raided the first 2 tiers of Legion just long enough to finish Balance of Power and then pretty much stopped beyond a few raid finders to get some quests/achievements done.

I'm not inclined to push for competitive Mythic+ Dungeons, but I have found doing higher level keys each week a fun alternative to the amount of time (and more importantly the number of people) it takes to raid. It's been nice to do something challenging and get *mostly* competitive gear to people who raid.

Personally, I like the idea of raiding being the place for people with more time/like larger groups or just want to gear up faster while Mythic+ is for people like me with less time to spend or like Jbotb who wants to push the difficulty as high as possible. I am worried about the RNG with the Mythic cache now. It seems like it will be easy to fall behind if I get unlucky several weeks in a row (which was already a problem when Mythic+ cache was your only source of new gear in Legion). I guess we'll see how it goes.Comment by ReallyAbigarThis is really good info. The list of dungeons is particularly helpful. And as someone who vastly prefers M+ to raiding, I agree with Jdotb about tier's removal in bfa.Comment by talyesenThank you for the interview, it was quite interesting to read. Dungeon info helped me sort out the pieces of information from different streams of dungeon runs on beta.
I was hoping to find in this interview some insight on discipline priests in dungeons (if I remember correctly, it is the main spec Jdotb plays), are there any plans for wowhead guide or an interview on priests featuring this player?Comment by bloctoadGuilds are going to give loot to those who have made raiding and the progression of such goal a priority. The system wasn't failing you. It wasn't your priority.Comment by Indelible93Still makes me sad not seeing Prot warrior make the list. So many leather wearing tanks. It's the only thing that bothers me these days, how Warrior went from being THE tank, to having no place in tanking at all :<Comment by t4mtooCool, another expansion with easy and boring dungeons, thanks blizzard